465 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 465 Newer› Newest»Andrew Todd said...
What are your thoughts on the legality of bag search and computer search at US Customs?
2:16 PM
Thanks for posting this. Good luck with your future travels.
Foreign nationals don't have the rights that you have, of course, when entering the US, but when they are treated in an unjustifiable way, there is nothing they can do about it except resent.
How have the border authorities of other countries behaved towards you as a foreign visitor? I'm curious to know how they compare with each other and their US counterparts.
6:08 AM
Well handled. I must look into what the laws are in Canada -- would like to take your lead and stand up to rude, nosy customs officials. I have been avoiding flying via the US because they give me grief over certain country stamps in my passport.
7:29 PM
I think you might have been confused by the tasks the officer at the US entry point was performing.
The reason why you were being asked the purpose of your trip to China was actually a CUSTOMS and NOT IMMIGRATION question. In countries like the US, and Canada, the officers that you see when entering the country perform both immigration and customs duties.
In places like Hong Kong, the officers you first see perform only immigration duties.
Please see my post at http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13850213-post166.html for a more detailed explanation.
4:21 PM
Why is the function the officer was performing relevant? Immigration or customs, the questions were inappropriate. Paul's a law-abiding citizen; they can't deny him re-entry to his own country.
10:38 AM
well done.
9:46 AM
I traveled from Houston to Mexico City and back via Greyhound recently. On my way back through Laredo, we were all asked to exit the bus so they could use a giant x-ray on the bus.
I was the only white guy and presumably the only non-Spanish speaker. I asked the guy if I needed to get my bag and he said yes, so I went back on the bus and got my bag. He sent me over to "secondary" where another guy interrogated me. He searched my bag and in the process ruined my zipper. He seemed surprised to learn I was a prosecutor. He wanted me to show him my badge or a card, which I did not have with me. He asked me when and where my last international trip was. I told him the Caymans, but he wanted to know what my point of entry was. I took from this that he knew the answer to the question he was asking. After the interrogation, I was the only person whose bags went through the X-ray. The first guy came over and searched my bags again: he seemed frustrated that he was wrong, that I didn't have drugs, warrants, or a bunch of cash.
As a prosecutor, I sit in court every morning and listen to defense lawyers bitch about how unreasonably the police have treated some Defendant. I realize there is a good reason for searching a young-faced, scruffy, white guy returning from Mexico by bus(although it made me uncomfortable).
What I don't like is that there is a database where all of my travels and interactions with CBP personnel are logged. I am not, after all, a criminal. It is desirable to keep detailed information about suspected criminals. Maintaining records about every person who travels is fucked up.
I admire what you've done, but I am not willing to deal with the hassle associated with taking your approach.
12:51 PM
Bravo Paul! I crossed the border back from Canada today and was grilled off and on and forced to sit and stew for over an hour by a Customs officer who just could not believe the truth of what I was telling her about my personal business in visiting Canada. The whole time I was thinking that I don't have to answer these questions. From now on I am following your lead, fill out the form and tell them that as an American citizen my personal business is none of theirs. They are public servants, I am the public!
6:36 AM
You should always record the names of government officials with your personal accounts. It is time the internet was used to publically shame these people who abuse their authority, even on the peon level.
9:30 AM
@Manti
Actually even if you are a US citizen Customs can deny you entry. Dude got lucky they didn't feel like keeping him around. They could have made him sit in the holding area until he died if they felt like it.9:53 AM
Yay for you! This happened to my husband when we returned from visiting England in Bostons Logan Airport, mind you they detained HIM and not me! Idiots.
10:20 AM
http://www.reddit.com/r/ColbertRally/
If you can join us in declaring our right to be Americans.
10:45 AM
It's easier for an American to go to Canada or Mexico than to come back. It's easier even to get stopped in Canada for some violation (no NAFTA letter, no identification of any kind, I am still building up my resume of Canadian immigration violations) and lectured by the patrolman before he waves you through than to enter our own darn country with all our docs in order. One of these days I will stop and go back.
12:17 PM
This was a privilege that Mr. Lukacs had the luxury of trying. On the whole, it turned out well for him, even though he got a little bit hassled. Can you imagine what would happen if I - a scarf-wearing Muslim woman - tried this trick? Or, God forbid, my husband - a bearded young Muslim man? Both of us are born and bred American citizens. I'm an attorney. But we would get treated much differently if we exerted our right as Mr. Lukacs did. Unfortunate, but true.
5:18 PM
I'm consistently amazed at how much easier it is as a US citizen to enter Europe than it is to re-enter my own country.
I'd love to follow Paul's example, but I'm not thrilled at the prospect at being labeled as a troublemaker in a Federal database. I suppose that's what they rely on to engage in their petty tyranny, isn't it?
6:22 PM
Very interesting post. I've written a little on the subject of border crossing.
On an aside to your conclusions, I would like to point out that while you may not have a legal obligation to answer questions, that does not mean they have a legal obligation to let your baggage through.
The current state of the law allows the government to search and seize your baggage without a warrant or reasonable suspicion while crossing into U.S. borders. Whether this is what the law should be is another matter (and I've argued it should change).
I am wary of of the whole database thing. It's not that the database exists, although I am not a fan, but it is more the knowledge that it is also so poorly implemented and relied upon as to be, as a customs and border protection tool, completely useless except for harassment and power-trip purposes.
The new full-body scanners are also worrisome. Coming back from studying law in England was my first exposure to these. I flew into Atlanta on an 8 to 9 hour flight. My wife was with me and we had only recently found out she was pregnant. Sure enough, they were trying those full-body scanners.
In a jet-lagged daze I was led to one. After stepping up to it, I suddenly realized what it was and stated my refusal to submit to the scan. Surprised, the TSA agents took me to a pat-down area in the middle of the scanning area (in plain view of everyone) and proceeded to do a half-hearted pat down.
The worst part about TSA security measures are not the measures themselves, but the knowledge that they are no more than kabuki theater in their effectiveness.
7:12 PM
Have you considered writing a guide for others that would like to follow your example? I'm sick and tired of the assault on my constitutional rights.
10:27 PM
Sounds like homeboy showed up at the airport looking for trouble and he found it. What got him hassled was acting like an ass and refusing to cooperate, and sounds like the guys recognized him from having done this before. I carry no water for the airport inspection guys who can be major idiots but I don't believe in provoking a confrontation with them either by refusing even moderate cooperation. If you act suspicious by refusing anything but the name rank and serial number thing, it is reasonable for them to consider you suspicious. You get no props from me.
11:03 PM
@Daniella: The reason why you were being asked the purpose of your trip to China was actually a CUSTOMS and NOT IMMIGRATION question.
And this matters...why, exactly? He can't be forced to answer questions about the nature of his trip, no matter what the motivation from Big Brother's side.
Anyway, great piece Paul. I'm a US citizen -- incidentally, the most aggressive border interaction to which I was ever subjected was when I was entering Canada about 14 months or so ago. I was with my brother -- two twentysomething guys crossing the border. They clearly thought we were carrying drugs, and searched the car in a manner that reflected that suspicion. Coming back into the states took all of 30 seconds.
11:21 PM
I found a FAQ on the CBP site about what gives them authority to question citizens.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/176/kw/reentry%20questions
They state their right to search and question persons very matter-of-factly, but something tells me it's not that cut and dry.
From perusing the document they cite:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31826.pdf
It seems that Immigration officials can ask all the questions they want but must have reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing to detain you.
Customs officials can look through your stuff but there is no mention of their right to question you.
There is this particular nugget at the top of page six:
"But an officer cannot construe a person’s refusal to be interviewed as sufficient cause to suspect wrongdoing."
Odd how that's not mentioned on their FAQ page.11:43 PM
x2 to taiyyaba
had you been any other race or a woman this would not have gone over as well. one hand, congratulations on exercising what little rights you have; on the other hand I wouldn't pat yourself too hard on the back. The way laws are changing, you won't have this chance again.
12:12 AM
I travel to North Korea annually. My travel habits during the Cold War were to the Soviet bloc and the USSR. I used to have problems on occasion but not like this. The customs people usually don't believe me and one even thought it was fascinating. I sometimes think it depends on the mood of the customs folks. I go to China frequently and wonder what awaits me in the future.
4:23 AM
Fantastic Paul! Your post reminds me of my own stand against answering questions from the Census Bureau
10:07 AM
I admire your ability to put it to 'the man' in this particular case. It seems like CBP is getting too full of themselves. I'm particularly annoyed by something I read recently which says they can search your laptop and phone all they want, without a warrant. Right to privacy anyone? Right to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure? Does that ring a bell?
Anyway, I'm beginning to worry with as much crap as I'm reading about CBP recently. I left the US in 2008 and haven't been back once since then, but have an upcoming trip. I've been to interesting places like Malaysia, Thailand, and the Philippines. I wonder how much grilling I'm going to get when I get back?
12:18 PM
Let's see, you refused to answer a question about whether you had traveled for business or pleasure but readily complied with the search and readily produced as many forms of ID as requested which feels far closer to a totalirian state than the questions that were asked. Your priorities are whacked.
6:20 PM
The proper answer to the first question:
"Business."
Sir, what kind of business?
"Mine."
11:59 PM
Damn straight. We maintain our rights only by insisting on them. The onus is on the official, not me.
2:21 AM
Typical white male privilege. Go get a REAL problem. Like being black. You wouldn't be picking fights and then getting all huffy over nothing. I guarantee you people in the inner city would LOVE to be 'harassed' like this.
2:42 AM
Why be a jerk? Just answer the questions instead of wasting everybody's time.
2:45 AM
Wow man, you're just an asshole. You deserve the wait.
2:48 AM
Seconding the comment on how much easier it is as a US citizen to get into Europe than to get back into the US (my passport wasn't even stamped last time I went into France, AND after French security there was a secondary US security AT THE FRENCH AIRPORT in order to have the privilege of getting back into the States).
I've traveled hundreds of thousands of air miles in the past five years, all over the world. Do our security tactics make me feel safer? No, they make me feel hassled, inconvenienced, and ashamed that anyone coming to visit my country has to see this as their first view of America.
2:49 AM
or you could just not be a douche and simply answer the questions.
2:54 AM
Good that your time has zero value. Most people would just answer these basic questions because they value their time and have better things to do in their lives that jerk around customs officers who deal with asshats like you every day.
Seriously, do you have so much free time that you can spend it this way? How about doing something actually productive with your life instead of just bogging down the system with your buffoonery?
You are a total moron. Hopefully next time they'll keep you sitting in a chair for a few days.
Seriously - there are much better ways to deal with things like this than hassling low-paid government employees.
2:55 AM
I agree with the other anonymous, to a degree. There's nothing unjustifiable that I see in these innocuous questions that have been asked for the 30 years I've traveled internationally, since they are probably the initial step in different questions depending on whether business or pleasure related to customs. Nothing inappropriate there. And nothing inappropriate in keeping records of travels, as the passport process has done for a long time as well.
My big problem is that you create a hassle not only for yourself but for whoever is behind you in line. Get over yourself and your paranoia.
3:10 AM
Good on ya!
3:11 AM
This will not work at a land crossing if you have your own car. The customs agents there will take apart your car and walk away "looking for smuggled goods". It is my understanding that they don't have to put it back together. The SF agents (if I understand correctly) could have completely unpacked this guy's bags and left the contents on the table and walk away.
as a frequent land crosser from Canada into the U.S., I have heard many stories such as this, and therefore play as nice as I possibly can.
It is all about power.
3:11 AM
There's nothing particularly impressive about this. You wasted people's time while saving yourself from giving information that wouldn't impact you either way.
I get the premise, but pick your battles.
3:13 AM
Stay classy...
3:24 AM
Crap like this is the reason it takes forever and is a hassle to travel nowadays. Heres a life lesson for you, dont be a douche, it effects others. Douche.
3:29 AM
Returning to the UK (as a UK subject) I have never been asked a question by Passport officials. Are US Citizens routinely asked such questions on re-entry?
3:32 AM
You sound like an irritating baby.
3:32 AM
You're sort of seriously a dick. These people were just doing their jobs, trying to make a day to day with the weight of being the ones who're tasked with deterring harm on their shoulders. Your little debacle was completely unnecessary and selfish. Those "thugs" were people too, what gives you the right to judge them?
3:35 AM
@K-Rod
Sir, what kind of business?
"Nunya"
or
"Bees Wax, Not Yours Inc.
3:41 AM
Nice job, let me know how it feels to be on the no fly list.
3:44 AM
It must be SFO. I came through LAX customs a week ago, and the guy who checked my passport didn't say two words to me. I had to go for a bag check (through the x-ray machines) since I brought some food back with me, but the guy that was there was extremely polite, jolly, and just waved me through when I said I only had chocolates and candy that was wrapped up (which was true). Last customs person I interacted with was the person standing at the exit that takes your declaration form. He said "Thank you" and waved me through barely glancing at my form.
Maybe it was because it was 9:30am, or maybe I just hit a bunch of nice people. :P But not all entries into the US are like this. (TSA on the other hand... I feel more at risk, i.e. they're going to detain me for some "random check", than going through CBP's hands.)
3:49 AM
While you might have been within your rights, I don't see what point you proved to anyone that had encounters with. If you were truly committed to making a change, go through the proper legal channels.
But then, you would have to involve only your time and effort and it looks like your real intention was to prove your point at the expense of people just doing their job.
Some people just like to point out a problem and create another problem just to prove their point, versus actually trying to make things better.
3:49 AM
Wow, so you're the fucktard holding up the damn customs line and making the rest of us late? Just say "business" like the rest of us and be done with it. Jesus. Fight something worth fighting for a change, douchebag.
3:50 AM
Dude you are my hero. I've crossed the US-Mexico border for years. Thanks to my last name being middle eastern every time I cross the border the Smurfs treat me like a criminal. I was born in the US and the idiot custom agent is asking me if I'm Taliban. (true story) The Smurf was saying this with a huge middle eastern accent. It was almost funny.
3:51 AM
Response to Wowza,
Be respectful at all times, but know what you actually must legally do. Otherwise we all will keep bending over till we fall over.3:52 AM
Nicely done! I'm saddened by the animosity of some of your commenters. As our country speeds towards a fully fear-driven existence I think it's a bit troubling that people will throw all their rights out the window to get through an immigration line faster. "Do as your told and don't ask questions" may work great in some places but I certainly don't want to live in a world like that!
3:53 AM
Some of the responders here are amazing. "That's what you get for not complying" and "Why not just answer, the data is innocuous"
I may be unique here, but I think the whole point is that our government is subject to a very strict set of rules for a very good reason. We have a duty as citizens, a solemn obligation to reject attempts by our employees and officials to contravene those rules.
3:54 AM
All I got from your experience is that you are a troll.
3:56 AM
i applaud your stance and admire your guts.
i am saddened by the number of people who think declining to answer questions we are not obliged to answer constitutes "being a dick."
what are you going to say down the line? that's ok, i wasn't using my civil liberties anyway?
3:57 AM
We raise hell against the good guys and let the bads go on "technicalities."
WHY hassle the U.S. Customs over such a stupid small thing. You taught no-one anything. Bet you think ACLU is good and Religion is bad.
If you are going to freak out on people with "attitudes" ... better go live in a cave. In fact, PLEASE DO SO.
Larry Beavers4:00 AM
Note that there are other reasons for the questions, and were intial questions that may be pertinent to serious issues you may simply not be aware of. For instance, depending on where you were in China, there may be concern for insect exposure or other non-indinginous contamination that IS a worry. There may be other biologics such as infection concerns that aren't hitting the media, but IS distributed in governmental bulletins.
Basically any information you could have given was far from an invasion of privacy, and I bet the guy on the plane next to you asked similar questions and got answers without the attitude you gave our law enforcement.
4:02 AM
Please don't spend your money in such a vile place as china.
4:02 AM
Most of his troubles came about because he performed an act that was not accounted for in the training manual or their experience to date. Your story should be circulated to all of the customs and border patrol units.
4:04 AM
